Featured Session: Albuquerque Aftermath: From Breaking Bad to Pluribus with Rhea Seehorn, Vince Gilligan, and Key Creatives

Speaker 1 00:00 Tell, tell us, start us offense with the beginning of it all and where this universe came from in that head of yours. It was, gosh, it was, I found this old Speaker 2 00:21 notebook, very first idea for this. And it was, it was, I wrote down something about, like, a sentence about guy, good guy does something bad to, you know, to say it was date, I dated it. That's it, by the way, for the writers over it was a good idea to date stuff. And it was, it was 2004 and that was. Speaker 2 00:48 No 30, thank you so many. Speaker 2 00:58 Somebody was, you know, it was Sony was great that they blessed to remotely, and probably a lot of folks have heard the stories. I one fellow who was no longer in Sony, and I'd say this, he was he had missed. Was wrong in the comfort of the time when he heard the idea for breaking down, he said, but to his credit, he's a good guy, and to his credit, he stands by, I mean, he doesn't. He acknowledges it. But who knew, you know, who knew I never Speaker 1 01:51 thought and Ray, tell me when you first encountered this gentleman over here, and when, when Saul and you know, like, I'd love to just talk a little bit about how you you stayed within the Gilbert, as we like to call it, and, and why? Why? Unknown Speaker 02:12 I think most of us can answer why, because he asked. Speaker 3 02:19 So I first encountered this just going and auditioning for better also, I mean, I kind of just work huge, huge, huge, Breaking Bad fan. And was actually on the Sony lot auditioning for a show. It was perfectly lovely, but you could tell by the nature of the show and just the way they were going to do it and the tone that the character was going to remain exactly as is for the duration, there would not be evolving of the character or finding new layers. And, you know, always have plenty of friends that didn't even get the call for the audition, so I was grateful. But I'm walking across the snowy line, get back to the parking building, and they had the breaking that RV there, and I was like, can you imagine, because I find you're ready to be very close to a lot of the theater that I used to do, and, you know, asking people to sit forward and think and sort of derive their own interpretations and thoughts and meaning From things and complex characters and all that. I've done wonderful work. I'm not pooping on any of the great work I've got to do. But I saw that. I was like, can you imagine, like, doing like, that kind of writing and like, you know, the beautiful work that they all did on great combat all of those performers. Obviously, I'm looking at the female characters and Amazon and Betsy Brandt and everybody on it. Like, so cool. And it was literally the next day that I was called in for better calls all. And I had heard about that you were going to do this. And I was like, he can have anybody he wants to. But then, to your credit, you wanted to see all sorts of people for it. And and to be Ali Thomas caston's credit, they didn't pigeonhole me as a sitcom actress. They called me in for years for all sorts of parts. And so I went through that process, and then by the time we got to the testing process, that's when I actually met Vince and Peter gold, and they couldn't be nicer, and when Vincent Peter went to great lengths to make the final test, though some of you probably know could be very, very nerve cracking and probably not your best work, and they went to great lengths to make it as comfortable as it could be, and like you get to do it more than once until you feel comfortable and all of that. So then we got to work together, and it was incredible. I had no idea that he had this idea that was percolating, and then decided that that maybe he should write the lead for me. And when we finished, Better Call Saul. I was calling all of my producers and writers and directors to say, you know, wherever you go, I will, I will follow, just curious what you're working. On next, and that's when Ben said, Well, I wrote something for you if you're interested. So I cried, and then I hear Mary said, you said, I'm not ready to send you the script, and I don't want to pick it. It's kind of sci fi and but you can wait and read it and decide later. And I said, No, it's fine. I'll do it whatever, because he's going to only write something interesting. He's going to only write something that I would already be a fan of, and he's going to only write female characters that I would want to play. So what if it had sucked? She was already too late. Yeah, then I was like, crap, I have to do this. It was better, even better than expected. Speaker 1 05:48 Dave, tell me about something Ray just said, I think, is such the through line through all of his work, never underestimate the audience. Always expect more of them. And I think you know, given a long collaboration the two of you, how do you feel that through the process and through all of the work you guys have done together, something we talk about all the time, and Speaker 4 06:11 Vince is always reminding us, wisely, that for the kinds of stories that Vince is telling, there's never a reason to think less of your audience. And we want to encourage that thought, and we want to encourage that detail that gets people to think and putting our time into it's why it takes us a while to make these shows. But I think it is definitely a through line, and it's a through line that carries through Vince's calls, and there's a reason why part why, which is that we value the story. It comes down to what Vince starts with, our page and our writers, lessons that we've Speaker 4 07:01 learned over all those years and getting better. Make, regardless the way we think about any of the shows that we worked on that chance enough right to be together. Speaker 1 07:20 It is important. About your journey, and I was so interested in how Speaker 1 07:38 been established and like what, what did? How did you think about him in this new iteration and with the spotlight on him that we kind of hadn't seen before? Yeah, it's challenging to come in to create an Speaker 5 07:53 established character coming from one show job. It's very unique. I never had that opportunity before. It was pretty awesome. I went I was like, Okay, I came up. I remember having a meeting up in Burbank a few days. Color Unknown Speaker 08:20 is a tool that I use Speaker 5 08:33 in my my toolbox, in creating costumes, because Brown is kind of like, you know, it's not a power color. It's just like, and then to kind then to kind of, you know, he's got, he's got pompous idea. And I think I pitched you the idea of pompous looking lawyer would be brown double. And then we started talking about pocket placement, talking about the ticket pocket, Speaker 6 09:02 about market specific places where Speaker 5 09:15 pockets go, and then just push this idea of how I thought Jimmy would want To be recognized as being successful, you know, even though, you know, these Gucci's were not Speaker 2 09:27 blue cheese, it's horse big ribbon paper clip. I was gonna, I was just gonna say, tell them the story. The paper clip also they had nipple buttons up. So I came up Unknown Speaker 09:38 with his nipples. It's Speaker 5 09:45 this difference, you know, I snapped off the metal bridle, the big part of like a ritual shoe, and snapped it up and then rewired it with a paper Speaker 2 09:56 sworn one of my main services is. Know, you saw that, because I thought that was such a brilliant delineation of character through through wardrobe, through costume. And it was, it just, it was, it was Speaker 3 10:13 just a great, if you can see it a little bit when he goes to the Kettlemans and finally has one up on them, and he's sitting on the on the hearth. But I used to tell Jen that anytime where I needed to, like, make sure I checked back in. His wife, Ken, still loves this man and wants to help him. I would look at that shoe, and I was like, Dude, he's only keeping it together with paper foot. Anyway. And thought into these characters, into their Unknown Speaker 10:47 craft, is really unique and Unknown Speaker 10:53 extraordinary. How do you Speaker 1 10:58 pull all that together? You've got all these incredible artists working at sort of the top of their game, and then it's got to come together and be realized, you know, in a somewhat regular schedule, you know, somewhat these days, you know. Speaker 7 11:14 But, but how do you, you know? How do you kind of stay on top of Unknown Speaker 11:18 all of this extraordinary Unknown Speaker 11:19 work? Take really good notes. Taught me from Speaker 8 11:29 the beginning was everything comes back. Everything means something, and that includes our cast and crew, and we all have something to say and something to give in the production. And, you know, we have many show house. We talk about everything, questions. We ourselves. I mean, not a day goes by that we don't ask something. How does this look? What do you think of that we truly do respect our village, and it takes a village, and we happen to have some really talented, talented folks in our village. Speaker 1 12:06 I'm going to take one of these questions from the audience, because I think it's a great question. This is from James kitchens, Vince, when you're breaking a story in the room, how do you balance your own instincts about where the story needs to go with what your writers are bringing? Unknown Speaker 12:21 Good question. The best question, the best place to start is, Speaker 2 12:31 it sounds selfless, but it's actually very selfish. The best thing to do is to very quickly learn to not pay attention to whose ideas, who's whose ideas? Yeah, we when it's working well in the writers room, we are I'm not. I'm not keeping score in my head. And some of the greatest moments, moments that I'm the most proud of on all three shows. I don't remember who said what. I don't remember who said it when it just kind of washes over the circle. But the best I did before answer the question is the best idea wins, and, and, and, you know, there's a lot of ways to do this job, and you could be dictatorial, and you could be all that kind of stuff, and that maybe works for some shows, but I always felt, and again, it's not because I get this reputation to be a nice guy. I'm not that nice. But I, you know, at the end of the day, I'm so proud of our work, but we're not cured with cancer. You know, we spend a TV show, and there's no reason for people not to enjoy coming to work. Once they get there, they're going to work harder and all that. And they do, but there's no reason. And if you just don't pay attention to who said what and who came up with what, it just the dividends increase totally wise creatively. I also Speaker 3 14:04 was interesting when you told me it seems like it should go without saying, but I hadn't thought about it that because the question involves the phrasing where the story needs to go. And I always felt like Peter would tell me that if anything you question, like if you have the character do something else, you make the scene go where you want it to go. That might not be the right answer. Speaker 2 14:24 It shouldn't be that easy. Brought that up, but the characters tell you what's where he goes. You don't tell Yeah, you're right. Unknown Speaker 14:32 All right. Ray, let's talk about digging into Carol. Speaker 1 14:42 You I think what I didn't realize reading it on the page, and I remember you Speaker 9 14:50 did, is how much of the show is so just in your mind view Speaker 1 14:57 and in the moments of quiet. Moments of desperation, when you what was the difference you saw when you read it versus now that you've seen it in terms of the show and your performance in it? Speaker 3 15:12 Well, I only got this much one at a time, which is always the way they do it. So it wasn't like I saw the breadth of the whole thing and understood, you know? Oh, I'll be doing an episode with almost no dialog. Oh, I'll be doing episodes almost by myself. But that being said, as a fan of Vince's work, I know that he I've seen Mike Irwin passages, you know, where the character doing a task is filmed, composed, classroom produced, as well as a dialog heavy scene or an action scene, and he expects that many story beats to come out of it as well. So I I was prepared, not just for the work that you do, but the plus side of that is the trust that you get that we're going to tell the story just through performance. And I was excited about that, because for me, it's the same it's the same work, as if there was dialog, I'm still being out, like, what is happening in the story here, what's the character thinking? And, no, I didn't know. Like, it's gonna be here, or like, I didn't know. And there's days where I would read something that's tomorrow and think, like, oh, today's the day they find out that I'm not very good. But this thing that Vince does where he trusts the audience, I have to say, it also involves that he trusts the performers. And it isn't that I don't take direction, and we try it a million different ways, and I very much enjoy that process. I trust his ideas, and one of the great gifts he's given me is that he trusts mine. But when we trust the audience, he alleviates or rids me of the owner knows exactly what I'm thinking. I just have to think the thoughts and make sure that I make true to the character, but I have to telegraph these things, and it really frees me up to do a much more complex and nuanced performance, which you're not always allowed to do. So thanks. Unknown Speaker 17:16 Thank you for killing it every single time Speaker 7 17:22 you know, has it? Do you feel that the fan Speaker 1 17:31 response is a bigger you know, the show being so popular and such a big breakout, has it changed your life at all, or your relationship to the public. I think Speaker 3 17:42 I could say, like, we talked a little bit like when we were in London, Evans, and I don't read reviews, but we vote best for like, a summary, because we were in London when it came out, and we didn't, we didn't want to go into a press room the next day and be surprised by the reaction, like, Oh, hi. Then so we heard it was doing well, and we are like, it was doing really well. And I remember having a drink with you, and like, of course, we were all trying to make the best show we could, and it was a show that I would be a fan of, and it was so awesomely weird, and I kept not being able to guess what it was gonna go and it caused the crew, even on late nights, to stay up asking each other the same questions I was raising. But there's a part. And it's like, and I think you said the same, that's like wellness and fix it. But is this their niche thing? Is this going to be very unique sort of cultish thing, and so for it to engender this conversation, and broad, like, audience reception, like, it blew me away. It isn't that I didn't expect it from his work, their work, which is always brilliant, but I am blown away by really touching some kind of nerve in people that want to really talk about it and the popularity of it, and for critics and fans to like the same show, you don't always win that lottery, and that's been amazing. Speaker 1 18:59 It's a good moment for Virginia's question, which I find hilarious, Ray, how long did it take for you to understand what Pluribus was all about, trying to figure it out? Speaker 3 19:15 Really wonderful that I'm playing a character that doesn't understand what's going on. Therefore I don't have to No, but I don't know. I don't have every time I am a fan of the show, as well as having the great fortune to be in it, I don't have, there's things I think I would have to answer to, and then I start thinking about them, and I dig deeper, and I dig deeper, and I go, it's about, human nature, but it's also about what it means to be human, and defining like, what is the pursuit of happiness, and is that the end all be all. And how do you define success, and how do you define love and relationships? I mean, like every day the brilliant Carolina winter playing was. OSHA, just a terrifically difficult part that she is so excellent in. And we were talking one night because people were really wanting us to answer on some discussion, like, is she being manipulative? Is Carol being manipulative of them, just playing them, or are they being manipulative of her, just doing this so they can get her to do what she wants? And then this, I was like, she's completely manipulative because they have one goal in mind. And then someone in the crew said, Isn't that every romantic relationship, though, if you're flirting, you want something. So how is, how is everything's manipulative? And I was like, well, that's depressing as shit. I don't know the answers. I don't know I don't know what the show's about, and I love Unknown Speaker 20:40 it. Fans carry local Speaker 2 20:42 line on this shows, according to Jim, no, I mean, it's not badger that. One, dodging question. But I was about to say my badging the question. I was about to dodge the question. But for a reason, I feel like I did a lot of press all through Breaking Bad better console, where I would end a lot of podcasts, all kinds of stuff where I say, Well, what does this mean? What if it means there's For God's sake, you know, just be more sphinx like, and I just shut up. Just let other people figure out what it means. I picked the right time to do that because this is the hardest one of all to explain. A lot easier explain, you know what, Breaking Bad. But you know it, I'm going to try to let other folks tell me what our show is about, because I learned stuff all the time. When people tell me, I like the thing that and our crew is a great start. The crew member said, is an ever romantic relationship. I love stuff like that. I learned about my own show when I talk to other people, either people who helped make it, who are part of the making of it, the process of making it, or folks who, you know, not involved in the making of it, learn stuff all the time. Speaker 3 22:11 So that was the other people interpret. Other people's interpretations have been great, and there is no wrong answer. Remember that we have one reporter that asked us, is this whole thing just a metaphor for grief and depression? And I was like, Oh, I there's a lot of grief in it. Obviously, it weighs heavily, partially because of the Brent nearly, I'm sure that plays hell and Oh, Unknown Speaker 22:47 amazing actor, documentarian, Speaker 3 22:51 but you know, it's like those relationships. So I was like, Yeah, grief weighs heavily. And she's like, No, but isn't it about like, how when you are grieving or have severe depression, that you feel like you're down a well, and that all these other people that keep telling you to cheer up, you can't quite make out what they're saying, and they feel like a foreign species. And I was like, Yes, this is what it's like. That's incredible. As people dig it. Speaker 2 23:15 I don't care what we heard some someone say, I really want your show the publicist, Speaker 7 23:28 Steve, tell us about, I think one of the most iconic things Speaker 1 23:33 about Pluribus is the score is, and it really was a change for you in terms of the vocalization. How many people here have walked around going tell us about that process and and where, where it originated, and then ultimately, how you executed such an incredible, incredible sound. Speaker 4 23:54 Thank you. But I think the craziest part about our working together. In truth, we did the same universe for a really long time. And here's a message for CO hosters out there and musicians. I imagine there's a bunch, since this is South by Southwest, that the decisions you make musically really early on on a TV show are going to be around for a long time, longer than I ever would have imagined. But Pluribus, when I first heard about it, was the first opportunity, therefore, in all those years that we've been together, to start totally from scratch. For I think that's true for all departments, you know, to really and in fact, it was a mandate to be different, to distinctly distinguish this show from the others that we've done. So for me, that was both enormously exciting and absolute, because not for nothing, we, what we're doing for so long had been pretty successful. So to break off those. Tools to take our creative process, when we talk about music done with studs, and really reanalyze all the lessons we learned, the ways that we use music, the way we carefully don't use music and apply, and really think about which of those lessons had value in a Pluribus world and which we needed to leave behind. Was a long process, and it was, it was a difficult process, actually, but coming out the other side, it gave us a freedom to to do exactly that, to take all of our favorite lessons that we've learned, but also really exploring it.